Today marks the tenth anniversary of Obergefell v. Hodges, the landmark Supreme Court ruling that legalized same-sex marriage nationwide. At the time of that ruling, 35 states had constitutional bans against same sex marriage, including Kentucky. This decision cemented the political and social capital that the LGBTQ+ community had built in this country. That ruling changed us. It put some sass in our step. And I bet most of you could tell me where you were when it happened. 

And I wish I could report that it’s only been uphill from then for the LGBTQ+ community,  but from the record number of anti-LGBTQ+ bills to the overturning of Roe v. Wade, many in the LGBTQ+ community are worried for the future of LGBTQ+ rights, including the potential overturning of Obergefell v. Hodges. 

So what do we do? 

We connect over our stories. And nobody knows the power of stories more than Jim Obergefell. From his time in Cincinnati to his shift towards local activism, I am excited to share my conversation with Jim Obergefell with you on the tenth anniversary of Obergefell v. Hodges.

Missy Spears: What were the moments growing up as a queer person that really impacted you?

Jim Obergefell: Well, I think it starts way back when I was probably maybe 10 at most, and realizing at that point that I was different, because I would dig out the Sears catalogs and JCPenney catalogs my family finished with. I’d dig them out of the trash and cut out the pages of men’s underwear, but feeling, not being able to put it into words, but feeling and knowing that it was wrong, so I kept them hidden. So I think back to that, just that as a young kid, knowing something was different about me. 

You know, when I left Sandusky and moved to Cincinnati to go to UC, that was 1984. It was the height of the HIV and AIDS crisis. What I remember is, as I started to explore a little bit, my freshman year, just being terrified that if the cute boy on my residence hall floor, if I kissed him I was going to get AIDS and die. And that really had a big impact on me. It forced me back into the closet. I mean, I nailed that closet shut because AIDS scared the daylights out of me. So it really wasn’t until that summer of ‘92, when I went to graduate school at Bowling Green State University, that I came out, and then I started my life with John. I met John just a couple months later, and we became a couple.

For me, the things that formed me into the person, the gay man I am today, came from being in Cincinnati. It was a horrible place for the queer community, horrible place in the nineties, and John and I, not that we necessarily did anything different than who we were, but John liked to always say we weren’t our own personal Pride parade. So we did okay in Cincinnati, because we were kind of these clean-cut white men, and that made life easier. So we kind of fit into what Cincinnati expected from the queer community. If you’re going to be queer, okay, just be quiet. Don’t be obvious about it, and you’ll be okay.

And that’s what we did. I mean, everybody knew we were a couple from our neighbors, our friends, people we worked with. We worked at the same place multiple times. Everybody knew we were gay and a couple, but it was that kind of pressure that Cincinnati just put on us not to stand out. Don’t stick out, don’t! Don’t be too gay, and like I say, I think that was just kind of who we were, anyway. But I don’t know. I would love to go back in time and figure out, would I be different today had I not been in Cincinnati and felt that pressure?

But then, in the mid-nineties, when Cincinnati City Council passed the human rights ordinance that included our community, and there was the backlash which resulted in the city of Cincinnati, the people of Cincinnati, passing a ballot issue to amend the city charter, to say no laws could be passed to protect us, to protect the queer community that was like the first time I did anything that I felt like was activism. And that’s when I went to my polling place and protested against that ballot issue on Election Day. But that was a tough time. Knowing that our fellow Cincinnatians chose to vote against us.

Because here we were in a city, we knew Cincinnati wasn’t a great place for us, for our community, but John had grown up there. I had fallen in love with Cincinnati. We had family, we had friends, people who treated us like a married couple. So that hurt. It was already not the best city, but to have our knowing that our neighbors voted to permanently make us second-class citizens really hurt.

And then, 2004. That was the year that the people of Cincinnati repealed it. That was a great thing, and that was when our feelings about Cincinnati really started to change, because the fact that the people of Cincinnati said, “This isn’t who we are as a city. We take it back, we repeal it.” But it was also the year that Ohio passed its state-level Defense of Marriage Act. We had talked marriage in the mid-nineties when the Hawaii State Supreme Court ruled in favor of marriage equality, and John’s stepmom said, “Well, if this all happens, I’ll take everybody to Hawaii so you can get married.” We talked about that in the mid-nineties, and yet here we’re living in Ohio, once again a state that’s deciding to officially make that out of reach for us. So yeah, definitely, Cincinnati. It’s nice to see how much it’s changed.

Jim Obergefell answers reporters after Supreme Court ruling. Photo provided by Jim Obergefell.

Missy Spears: It is. It was crazy how long it took for them to repeal that. Covington had passed a fairness ordinance in 2003, when that was still on the books in Cincy.

Jim Obergefell: So it’s so funny now to look at Cincinnati. They have John Arthur, Jim Obergefell Way. And it was what, the first or second city to ban conversion therapy?

Missy Spears: Yeah.

Jim Obergefell: It was Cincinnati. I think there’s some conflict over who was first, but I just love how much it’s changed for the better.

Missy Spears: I wanted to ask about your move back to Ohio from DC. I saw a comment that you made about how the fight for equality for all marginalized groups was now at the state level, rather than the federal level. I would love to hear more about that, including how it changes you as an activist.

Jim Obergefell: So these days, given the Federal Government that we have, the administration that’s in place, we’re going to have no success whatsoever at the federal level. So we really have to focus on local and state. And honestly, that’s what we should have been doing anyway, because when we change our local level, we were part of changing our state. And then, as more and more states change and progress, becoming better, that makes the whole country better. So that’s just what we really should be focusing on. And it’s for all marginalized communities, not just the queer community. I mean, we have to be fighting for everyone because, when Roe was overturned with the Dobbs decision, and Clarence Thomas wrote his concurrence where he put a target on Obergefell, he put a target on Lawrence, which overturned anti-sodomy laws, and also Griswold, which guarantees the right to birth control. When we lose one right in this country, all rights are at risk. And that’s what we’re facing. And we have a Supreme Court, that has made it clear that at least 2 of them would like to overturn marriage so what we have to do is be active and focused on the local level, on the state level. We’re not going to have success passing positive legislation in Congress, we’re not going to have luck with the Supreme Court. So what do we do? Do we give up? No, we have to fight locally, and a big part of that is, going back to what Harvey Milk said, come out, because that’s the only way we’re going to change people’s minds when they understand that. “Oh. queer people!” That’s not just some abstract thing, that’s my coworker. That’s my neighbor. That’s my family member. 

We do that by sharing our stories, because stories are really how we connect with each other. Stories are how we can change that abstract into something real and something that people can connect with. And you know that was something I felt throughout the fight for marriage, something that I saw again and again. I think one of the biggest moments I had was when I was in the Supreme Court for oral arguments. The guy sitting next to me said, “Jim, I just want you to know your and John’s story really had an impact on two people I know, including my twin brother, who’s a Roman Catholic priest.” His brother had called him that morning on the way to the courthouse to say, I just watched a story about the Plaintiff and his late husband, and it made me rethink my opposition to marriage equality.

This was a Catholic priest saying this, and telling that same thing to another person. I thought, well, you told me about your brother? Who’s the other one? Then he turned back to me, shook my hand, and said, Thank you. You’re doing the right thing, fighting for marriage equality. And then he told me that he was an evangelical republican, whose mind had been changed because of stories. So that was a huge moment for me. It was just this really obvious, yeah, Jim, here’s somebody who is part of a group that you never expected to be on your side, that you never thought would support this fight. And yet here he is, telling me that he does, and that I was doing the right thing. So stories matter. 

I was in Ireland and I did some events, and I heard over and over again from people who were part of the national vote in Ireland about how, when they were going out into rural Ireland to knock on doors and campaign, to ask people to vote for marriage equality, again and again they’d knock on a door, and an elderly couple would answer and say, “Well, of course we’re voting for it. Our child talked to us, our grandchildren talked to us, told us stories.” So I saw there how important storytelling was, and I think right now, for the trans community, that’s one of the most powerful things we can do is tell their stories and have them tell their stories when they feel safe, because so many people think, “well, I don’t know a trans person,” and they just have this preconceived wrong made up idea of what a trans person is. But then, when they meet a trans person—“oh, you know what? They’re really no different than me.”

So it’s sharing our stories, letting people in again, keeping our safety in mind these days, especially. But it’s those stories that really break down preconceived notions, break down barriers, and help others see another person as a human being.

Jim Obergefell (left) and husband John Arthur (right). Photo provided by Jim Obergefell

Missy Spears: Sharing your story can be draining, especially putting yourself out there on such a huge level like you have. How have you built the emotional endurance to stay so involved?

Jim Obergefell: I don’t know. Honestly. I just did it. I mean, I’ve had so many people tell me, especially after maybe they’ve been in an event where I’ve spoken, and they’ll say, it must be so so draining, so tiring, so hard for you to tell your and John’s story again and again, and to talk about John, who’s dead, and my answer has always been, unequivocally, no. 

I love it because I get to talk about my husband. I get to talk about the most important person in my life.

I keep him alive that way, and that was especially important for me in the first few years after he died. It was a huge part of my grieving process. I talked about him all the time, and I kept him alive in my heart, in my mind, and in my thoughts, and in everything I did. So, I don’t know. I don’t know that I ever necessarily thought it was draining, because John and I filed our lawsuit because we wanted to exist. We wanted to matter to the state we called home, and somewhere in the back of my mind, my mindset was, Jim, just get over it. You’re going to get tired, but it’s the right thing to do. Keep telling your story because it matters.

And what I love is I’ve had so many people share their stories with me. I’ve had young people come out to me. I had one kid say, Jim, I’ve never told anyone this, I’ve never even admitted it to myself, but I’m like you. I like guys. So there was something about my story and the connection I helped build with him that made him feel comfortable to come up to me and share that with me. And I’ve had other people do that. I’ve had a young woman tell me that marriage equality saved her life, because she was going to commit suicide because she never saw a future for herself.

So again and again, people share their stories. I mean, they show me photos of their commitment ceremony, and their wedding in California, which was then reversed, and then their next wedding, and then the next wedding, and they show me pictures of their families and their loved ones. And my wine business that I have out in Sonoma County. Every wine we release tells a story, and when I’m out there, I’m telling stories again and again and again, and people tell me their stories, and it never fails. People leave feeling happy, feeling seen, feeling respected, feeling part of something bigger than themselves, and it’s all because of stories.

Missy Spears: We went from this amazing high in 2015 to feeling like it’s 2004 again. Do you think that this is just the natural result of progress? A 2 steps forward, one step back. Or are we dealing with a different kind of cultural backlash?

Jim Obergefell: I think it’s a mix of both. Every step forward in our nation for civil rights, for human rights, there’s always a backlash, because there are people who, for whatever reason, think equality is a pie. And if one group gets equality, that means they’re taking a piece of the pie away that nobody else can have. So there’s always backlash. And I knew, even on June 26, 2015, that there would be backlash. I mean, Kim Davis. How long did that take, a week? So I think part of it is just the natural human backlash from people who lack empathy, who think that other people are less than human. It just seems like that’s unfortunately human nature. And I wish we could get past that. But I think it’s worse these days because of the advent of a national leader. I refuse to say his name, but a national leader, who knows only how to inspire people to embrace their hate and be bold and proud about it, and to be just disgusting about it. So I feel like it’s a combination of things like human nature, but it’s made worse by our current MAGA world. People who have gotten the okay to be racist, to be homophobic, to be misogynistic. You name it, and they’ve been emboldened, and they’re happy to do that because they think that they’ve been given the okay to do it from the highest office in our country. So yeah, it’s not normal. But it’s what we have. It’s what we have to deal with.

Jim Obergefell and supporters celebrating the Supreme Court ruling. Photo provided by Jim Obergefell.

Missy Spears: For the folks who want to get more involved, what would you recommend that they do to jump in?

Jim Obergefell: Find local or State organizations that are fighting for the causes you believe in. The Fairness Campaign in Kentucky is like Equality Ohio here. Find and follow your state’s organization, and get on their email list for when they say, “Hey, we need people to call elected officials to say, we oppose this bill, or we’re in favor of this bill” or when they say “we need people to show up at the Capitol and testify.” You’ll find out through that organization. So follow organizations like that, and if you can, support them financially. And use your voice within your community, in your family, but use your voice in your community. Speak up when people are saying things that are hateful. When people are saying things that are just flat out lies, speak up because silence, in so many ways it means you accept what they’re saying, or agree with what they’re saying, so don’t let them think everyone is on their side.

Speak up. You speak up in the ballot box. The only way this country can actually live up to its ideals. We, the people, equal justice, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, is when every single person votes in every single election. And not just presidential, vote in every single election, dog catcher, state representatives, city council, township, trustees. You name it. Vote in every single election, because, honestly, that’s the only way. That is our only voice in government.

I want people to think back to 2016 when a lot of people chose not to vote, or they lodged protest votes because they thought it was funny, or they thought, well, I just want to blow things up. Well, those votes in 2016 gave us the current Supreme Court, and that Supreme Court has already taken away a right that people relied on for almost 50 years, and it’s poised to take away marriage and other rights. So vote in every single election.

Missy Spears: What would you say to trans kids and trans families today?

Jim Obergefell: You are not alone. There are millions of people who value your humanity, who value you as people, who know that you deserve to live your life the way you want to live your life, that you deserve the right to gender-affirming care. You deserve the right to use the bathroom that fits who you are. You deserve to play sports with your friends. If that’s what you want to do. There are millions of people who believe that share those values.

I know I can only imagine how alone many people in the trans community must feel at times these days. They’re bearing the brunt of it. I mean, they’re being treated the worst at least within the queer community. They’re bearing the brunt. They’re being treated the worst by state legislatures and elected officials. But you’re not alone. There are millions of people out there who are on your side, so don’t forget that there are people who care, people who want you to live unapologetically as you, and live your life without fearing for your life, because you deserve that as a human being. So just remember that you’re not alone, even though at times I’m sure you feel like you are.

I’m out there fighting for you. There are millions of others.

Yeah, I guess that’s what I would say. You’re not alone.

We’re on your side, and we continue to fight for you.